Sunday, September 14, 2008

Release for the captives - Mass for the release of the ISA Detainees and for peace and justice in Malaysia

The Lord Jesus laid out the blueprint for His earthly ministry by picking the scroll of the Prophet Isaiah and read out the following words:

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
To proclaim a year of the LORD's favour

Proclaiming release to the Captives. This was the theme of the special Mass that was held at the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit on Monday.

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Here's a little background for our non-Malaysian readers. Malaysia is a very polarized country. The citizens of Chinese descent have recently been insulted by a member of the majority Muslim Malay community. A third tier leader of the ruling National Front, he insulted the Chinese by calling them 'squatters', not deserving and cannot ever even hope to possess equal rights. This is despite the fact that many Chinese have been in this land for hundreds of years and many Malays are recent immigrants from other countries.

This caused an uproar with members of even the ruling coalition calling on this recalcitrant arrogant fella to recant and apologize. This he refused to do and he continued his racist tirade. Finally, under tremendous popular pressure, the ruling Malay party gave him a slap on the wrist, suspending him for 3 years while not requiring a recantation or apology.

Then, the ruling party arrested the reporter who first broke the news of this creature's racist remarks. She was arrested under the draconian Internal Security Act, a remnant of British colonial rule. This law allows for indefinite detention without trial, at the pleasure of the minister of Internal Security. Most sane Malaysians were thinking WTF?! (pardon my French).

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Then came another insult to our collective intelligence. A Malay former State Chief Minister (who's father is an immigrant from Indonesia) who was dumped by the electorate when his party lost power during the last election on March 8th made several seditious accusations against an Opposition MP and current Senior State Executive Councillor of the state he lost. He claimed on his blog that Teresa Kok (left), the MP, went into a mosque in the wee hours of the morning to ask the committee to turn down the volume of the Muslim call to prayer, the azan. Now, not that that is necessarily a bad idea, but she denied it, and the mosque committee corroborated her story. What actually happened was that the nearby non-Muslims residents petitioned the mosque to tone down the volume of the sermons because the power amps used for the call to prayer are often then used to blare the sermons as well. Anyway, this was played up by the racist newspaper of the ruling party and the MP who denied it was arrested under the ISA while Khir Toyo, the racist instigator and the Malay paper Utusan Malaysia gets off scott free. This is utter bollocks. Another popular blogger, Raja Petra (right), a member of the Malay Royalty, was arrested as well.

Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, by St. Francis Xavier's Church, PJ at a prayer vigil for the ISA detainees, including Teresa Kok, opposition MP and a Catholic. Photo courtesy of the Malaysian Insider.

The Diocese of Penang responded to this travesty of justice by organising a special Mass to pray for the release of the detainees and for peace and justice in Malaysia. The Mass was at the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit. The Bishop of Penang was overseas attending a conference. The Mass was presided by Fr. Fabian Dicom. Other priests in attendance include Fr. Francis Anthony, the Cathedral Administrator, Fr. Marshall Fernandez, my parish priest, Fr. Mark Michael, his assistant, Fr. Edwin Paul, Rector of the Major Seminary, Fr. Simon Labrooy, professor at said seminary and Frs. Paul Chong and Joe Stephens, OFM Cap both.

At the beginning of the Mass, Fr. Fabian explained the use of the violet vestments, which was a sign of mourning.

The readings selected included the preceding reading from the Prophet Isaiah and the Gospel reading of the Beatitudes:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
"Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

These are fighting words and the people perceived it as much. How our nations thirsts for righteousness now.

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In his spirited sermon, Fr. Fabian denounced the injustice of the detentions and the very act itself. Reminding the congregation that Peacemakers are blessed and not those who only pray for peace, we were called to do our part in opposing such injustice in our nation.

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After the Mass, Fr. Francis Anthony also delivered a scathing attack on the ISA and the detentions. He mentioned something along these lines which I found very interesting. "For too long it has been 'We say and you do. No more!" More on this some other time.

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Candles were then lighted from the altar candle and we sang some spirited anti-ISA songs and waved our candles about. Overall, it was an interesting evening. I even got a shirt and some buttons =)

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I really feel that more self proclaimed traddies and 'orthodox' Catholics need to turn up, show support for and participate in events like this. It makes us seem less idiotic and only concerned about the externals.

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Events like this, where Catholics of all stripes stand as one and ask for justice and righteousness, can bind us all together despite our disagreements on liturgy and doctrine. Though the non-traddies are wrong on those points (among many others), the demand for justice is one that should be shared by all disciples of Christ. It must not be the domain of lefties only.

The political turmoil is by no means ended and attempts by the opposition to topple this corrupt and racist government has yet to bear fruit. Only God know what lies ahead, but that the road will be bumpy is a certainty. Anyway, dear readers, out of your charity, please say a prayer for my country, Malaysia, and for all those who are unjustly deprived of their freedom and for all who hunger and thirst for justice and righteousness.

30 comments:

Rita said...

Praying,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, the UK press is lousy at reporting stuff like this. Malaysia is my second home and I love her dearly.

Anonymous said...

all this is good but beware of the thin line on what is justice and what is liberation theology

Anonymous said...

Ahem....traddies don't need to participate in the Novus Ordo just to show our disagreement with the ISA.

Anonymous said...

Malaysians have only themselves to blame for maintaining the present goverment in power.

Rita said...

Anonymous #3

Nonsense! That is like blaming a loaf of bread because it provided food for a murderer. Quit the blame and please, of your charity, PRAY.

Anonymous said...

there are other ways of praying for the ISA detainees ..a rosary perhap ....

I thought we got shortage of priests but saw many on the altar ...at one time ...wat a waste of resources ....

Anonymous said...

rita,

You can't blame a loaf of bread because it is an object without a mind of its own. Yes, I am praying.

Andrew said...

I announce to you a great joy, Teresa Kok has been released from detention under the ISA. I hope she sues the government for ungrounded detention.

The Beatitudes promise that those who thirst for justice shall be satisfied. Liberation theology makes the mistake of thinking that they can satisfy the oppressed in the here and now, by their own efforts. But the promises of Christ of satisfaction are clearly eschatological.

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
for they shall be comforted.
for they shall inherit the earth.
for they shall be satisfied.
for they shall receive mercy.
for they shall see God.
for they shall be called sons of God.
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

The liberation theologians press for the fulfilment of the promises now.

But those who do nothing are guilty of the sin of the priest and Levite who passed the beaten man on the street whom the Samaritan helped.

We need to do what we can, and that includes praying. But, as Fr. Fabian said, Blessed are the peacemakers, not Blessed are those who ONLY pray for peace. We need to do what we can, and that includes praying, but not only exclusively.

The fulfilment is eschatological, but the attitudes are not.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
"Blessed are those who mourn,
"Blessed are the gentle,
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
"Blessed are the merciful,
"Blessed are the pure in heart,
"Blessed are the peacemakers, .
"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

These are thing we do in the here and now.

"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Though the rewards are heavenly, the Beatitudes are what we practice in life.

I would like to think that Teresa Kok's release has a little to do with our prayers. She was scheduled to be released 28 days after detention, but was released today instead.

PS
About waste of resources, only 2 of the 8 were parish priests, as I had written, The rest were assistants, seminary professors or religious priests without care of parishes. Anyway, it's never a waste, IMHO, for the Sacrifice of the Mass to be offered and where the many join their voices in pleading to God for justice and in joining their voices to oppose injustice.

About the government Malaysians deserve, we have to remember that Hitler was elected to power and so was Robert Mugabe and many other dictators. The BN government might have been the best choice, once upon a time, a choice that was the only viable one. Now, many stick with the status quo, with the Devil they know, out of fear of change. Surely they cannot be blamed?

And what about those who did vote for change, consistently, since Day One? Can we say a prayer at least for these poor frustrated souls? =)

Anonymous said...

Concelebration is blardy waste of time ...the poor in spirit and material need all priest whether they are a parish priest or not...

Anonymous said...

Hello, Im not going to insult you but I will speak the truth. Jesus said in the Bible "Call no man on earth father for you have only ONE Father who is in heaven.." Matthew 23:9 First of all catholics call this mere fragile old man Holy Father and also bow down to worship him, like Revelation speaks about. Everything about this leader is in fact antichrist and paganism. He is not the substitue for Christ and it is very sad that people believe that their salvation is through this man. Jesus is the ONLY mediator between man and God.. to believe anyone else is (especially a man) is against Christ. Where in the bible does it say that you are supposed to pray to Mary? Nowhere. If so, please show me. And on top of that... Catholics pray to statues of dead saints and a dead Jesus on a cross and Mary... Clearly (that is if you read your bibles), God wiped out whole nations because of idolatry!God Himself spake against the worshipping of graven images and statues in His 10 commandments! So if God commanded you not to do so, then who is the mere man to tell you that it is ok? I hope you people wake up before it is too late because everything about this "leader" is not for God, but completely against Him and he is leading you all astray.. Read your bibles and receive the truth from that source and not this human being. This message is truly out of love...

DonAaron said...

http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

If there are kids who call the man of the house a.k.a. the husband of their mother, Father apart from Bapak, Papa, pop, dad... salah ke?

DonAaron said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DonAaron said...

Sorry, for bargin in for another comment, but it is of great joy that God hears the cries of the people... YB Teresa is free... and with full faith me say that the others will too go soon

My soul glorifies the Lord,
My spirit rejoices in God my SAVIOR
He looks on His servant in her LOWLINESS
Hence forth all ages will call me BLESSED
The Almighty works marvels for ME HOLY IS HIS NAME!!!
His mercy is from age to age, on those who fear Him
He puts forth His ARMS in STRENGTH & SCATTERS the proud hearted
He CASTS the MIGHTY FROM THEIR THRONES!!!
And Raises the LOWLY
HE fills the starving with GOOD THINGS
Sends the RICH AWAY EMPTY!!!
He protects ISRAEL His SERVANT
Remebering His MERCY
the MERCY PROMISED to our FATHERS
To Abraham & His Sons FOREVER!!!

:-)

Anonymous said...

Typical Protestant moron. Donaaron, probably that guy calls his dad by his first name.

Anonymous said...

well a protestant if he is really one is entitle to his view. It is okay. To be a true Christian is to be charity like ...

Andrew said...

Dear anonymous friend. I would like to thank you for taking the trouble to speak the truth to us, whom you perceive as being in error. That’s a great and charitable thing to do. In the Catholic Church, admonishing the sinner and instructing the ignorant are among the spiritual works of mercy.’

I have to admit that in my younger and more combative days, my manner of answering might not have been as irenic, but perhaps I have mellowed over time. LOL!

So, if you would permit me to respond to you point by point because I too, as a Catholic, have a duty to instruct the ignorant (no offence intended). Forgive me for the brevity but I do hope you will get the point.

But know several things first. We most certainly do not "bow down to worship him, like Revelation speaks". That's just silly. Please do show where Catholics bow down and intend to worship the Pope like Revelation speaks, if you can. If you can't, then please retract that statement and do not further propagate such errors and calumny. That's a sin, if you read the Bible.

Perhaps in certain cultures, like the American culture where everything is so informal even the President is addressed as Mr. President, the act of bowing may appear alien and might even conjure up images of worship being offered. Brrrr....

In Malay Muslim culture, the custom is for the young to kiss the hand of the elders during weddings and during the festival to mark the end of the fasting month.

But in many more ancient cultures, such as the Middle Eastern culture of Jesus and the Jews as well as the Asian culture of the Chinese, Indian, Thai and Malay Christians, bowing is a polite way of showing deference to our elders. It most certainly does not entail worship! Jeepers!

Moving on to the point at hand, about calling priests Father.

Firstly, the context of Matthew 23 is Jesus’ admonishment of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who ‘do not do what they preach’. They love to accumulate earthly honours and titles (v7). In a hyperbolic counterpoint, Jesus instructs his disciples to do the opposite of the Pharisees because those who humble themselves will be exalted. That’s the context of the verse.

Should the Prodigal have addressed his Father as My Mother's husband, perhaps?

Now, can it be applied literally? As DonAaron had commented, what do you call the person who’s married to your mother? Dad/Father right? I do hope that you don't call him My Mother's Husband or by his first name. In Asian cultures, calling an elder or even worse, your parents by their first name indicates poor upbringing and boorish, uncouth and uncultured behaviour.

And what about the nice lady who taught you in school or even Sunday School (unless you’re an Adventist, the it’s Saturday school)? Teacher, perchance? But remember, dear friend, what the first part of Jesus’ prohibition was:

"But do not be called Teacher; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for (K)One is your Father, He who is in heaven. "–Matt 23:8-9

But the office of Teacher is one of the offices in the Church, along with Apostle and is one of the Spiritual Gifts. Some are called to be teachers. We must not be selective in our interpretation. If you want to be literal, aply it to your mother and father and your teacher as well.

Does my understanding bear out in the Scriptures? Let’s look at the opening of the proto-martyr St. Stephen’s speech to the Sanhedrin.

And he said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! –Acts 7:2a

Wow. St. Stephen not only appears to violate Jesus’ apparent command, but uses the title Father on the very people who had Jesus put to death, the same people whom he calls stiff-necked (v51) and who would later stone him to death. And his reward? He sees the Heavens open up and sees Jesus in Glory. Doesn’t quite fit your theory, no? And not to mention the many times the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are named Father.

Anyway, for the Catholic Church, building on the spiritual heritage of Israel, priesthood has always been tied to Fatherhood. For example, in Judges 17, Micah, an older man, says to a young Levite, “Dwell with me and be a father and a priest to me” and later on the whole tribe of Dan says to the priest “be to us a father and a priest. Is it better for you to be a priest to the house of one man, or to be priest to a tribe and a family in Israel?” Thus, you can see that priesthood has always been associated with spiritual fatherhood in the tradition of Israel, a tradition the Church, as the new Israel adopts as her own.

In New Testament times, the Christians are often referred to as spiritual children of the Apostles. St. Paul often refers to Timothy as his spiritual son (1Cor 4:17; 1Tim 1:2; 1Tim 1:18; 2Tim 2:1; Phil. 2:22). He also refers to Titus (Titus 1:4) and Philemon (Philem 10) in the same way. One would imagine that they would have returned his affection and spiritual fatherhood by naming him Father as he had named them sons.

This is not peculiar to St. Paul. St. Peter too names St. Mark the Evangelist as his spiritual son (1 Pet. 5:13). And St. John names the Christians under his charge children too (1John 2:1; 3John 4)

And so, dear friend, you can see that we Catholics are not so ignorant of Scripture as you would suspect. Let me end this by sharing this Scripture which captures the basis of us Catholics calling priests Father.

I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. -1Cor. 4:14–15

We will continue with the other points you have raised shortly. I but suspect that you will see that in these too, the Catholic Church is right. And, as many before you have done over the course of the Church's 2000 year history since it's foundation by Christ Jesus her Head, you too might feel called to enter her embrace =)

Anonymous said...

Aloha, It is me again, the one who said call no man father. First I would like to say, I am not a protestant-I am nondenominational. I follow the bible strictly for what it says and do not cling to a religious group or denomination.. To do so already causes seperation between Christians because there is always a constant battle to defend that "I am a baptist" or "I am Catholic" etc. So we can drop that assumption of what I am now that I have told you. Now, I never thought or assumed, dearest Andrew, that Catholics were ignorant of what is in the bible. I do know, however, that ALL (not just catholics) religious groups have "omitted" parts of the bible to fit their teachings... Doesn't mean you have not studied it.Now Let's get to the worshipping of Pope Benedict (or pope's/priests in general) first. Just about every picture I've seen of any pope, there were people kissing his hand, priests laying flat on their faces and stomachs to show reverence, people carrying him on a throne and their heads bowed low or bowed down on their knees...Is that not worship? If not then what is it? Why are these people bowing to this man? Is he God? We already know that answer... So what is it exactly? In ACTS 10:25-26 Cornelius falls to the feet of Peter to show reverence and Peter immediately corrects him and says "Get up, I am a MAN just like you are!" Now, if Peter was humble such as this and gives ALL glory to God, who is the Pope? Another example, Revelation 19:10- John falls to the feet of an angel, and even the Angel says "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimoney of Jesus. Worship God!..." So you see.. Even the heavenly angels know its wrong to have any one to bow to them.. I understand showing respect, BUT bowing, kneeling, laying flat on your face, kissing hands and feet,etc.. is going a tad bit too far.. don't you think? I bow to no man but I do bow and worship GOD who is not man. Please look up yourself these photos.. they are all over and will show these extreme acts of "respect". Matter of fact, I've seen pictures of people praying to the statue of the dead John Paul... HUH? LOL.. Seriously... what is THAT about..This may hurt a little, but even you Andrew, worship the Pope. Right there on your little side picture collage on THIS page, you have " I pledge OBEDIENCE to His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, Vicar of Jesus Christ." WOW! When you are "obedient" to someone, you are acknowledging that they have power over you or that they are in a "higher" position than you.. kinda like they are your master and you are their slave.. I don't know about you (yes I do, I take that back) but I pledge obedience to ONE and that is God. I think you should change that to something more appropriate like " I pledge obedience to ... GOD."

Now, moving on to the "Call no man father.."... Now Jesus is not referring to the literally tense of "father" as in a man who has biological children.. no not all.. He is talking about someone taking on the TITLE as "Father" as a means to exalt themselves.."Call no one Rabbi because you are all brothers.." Meaning that WE humans are all on the same level (we are brothers), no one is above another as God is above us. Read the rest of that verse and He clearly explains that.. He is referring to the title of "FATHER" as a means of "Lordship"..You took that out of context completely. Now as far the spiritual son, that is not exalting onesself with the title of "father",but as a mentor which is what being a father is and in that context, he was not requesting "father" to be a "title". In my church, I have spiritual mothers, brothers, sisters, and fathers but not in the sense of "HOLY FATHER" as you call the pope or that I exalt them... No not at all.. We are all the same. And to better support this "theory" which is not theory at all but truth, the pope's title is Vicar of the Son of God (Vicarius Filii Dei)... Hmmmm.... WHEW! That's a bit extreme and BLATANT! No need in me going in to what those letters stand for, I'm sure you have already had that conversation.. but to have a title that means the substitute of Jesus on earth is blasphemy!!! Jesus said that you will see Him coming just like you see lightening that strikes in the east is visible from the west. No man is the mediator between man and God. So, we know that the title "Holy Father" is not what we would describe as some one who is a mentor, no. This title is EXACTLY what Jesus Himself was talking about.... This title is used as a means to exalt the title carrier... Vicar means substitute or representativ.. That is why he calls himself "Holy Father" because he believes (as well you all) that he is the substitute of Christ on earth.. Tsk tsk.

I noticed that you did not expound or even defend the question as to why Catholics pray to Mary.. Why not? Is it because you have no biblical backing? Or why is it that Catholics bow to statues of Mary, Jesus, and dead John Paul? You do know that you are not praying to these people but demonic entities right? Why did the Pope change the 10 commandments? You know I read that the pope said that he had the divine power to do so.. power from whom? Satan? Lol.. Please "enlighten" me dearest Andrew.. I beg you. Oh and no I don't go to Sunday school or what have you... I uphold the Sabbath just as God commanded us ALL to do... Please use the bible when you address these questions, if you address these questions.. I don't care for "theories". Thanks much!

Anonymous said...

whateverlah Mr.Anoymous ....

You would always be in our prayers...

Andrew said...

Mahalo, non-denom anonymous, for your response. It would be great if you could use a pseudonym cos there are loads of anonymooses around! =)

Anyway, my previous response came with photos, so if you could check it out, then it would make more sense.

I'll get back to you soon, on the issues you've raised. Promise!

Just kinda tied up right now. But thanks for coming back!! God bless.

DonAaron said...

It's sad that others see the Catholics when they bow to the saints or to others as a sign of worship.

Well when it comes to respect and worship, ur common sense and your faith will tell ya who do you worship and who do you respect. When it comes to greetin an elderly person or a dignified being, the bow is in use, or when meetin the Pope, the kissing of the ring (not the hand - although it looks like it). It's more of a term of respect and gratitude of what a person has done to you.

And a little on Mary, when it comes to the word Hail Mary, it does not mean Praise Mary,

The def. of Hail Mary means in a verb term i.e. to greet enthusiastically or joyfully

Hail Mary Full of Grace
in simple English Rejoice Mary for you are full of Grace, now does this mean St. Elizabeth worshiped her cousin when she was visited by Mary?

The Lord be with you - in simple english, Mary was with Jesus at the time she visited St Elizabeth

"Blessed are you among women and..."
Not to be a sexist here but it was woman who brought the downfall of man and yet God chose women to bring the Savior into the world

Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners
Mary did not come before God but is the mother of the 'Son of Man' aka No 2 in the Most Holy Trinity
even in the Orthodox Church Mary
is recognized as the birth giver of God a.k.a. Theotokos

On the divinity point of view. Jesus exsisted in the begining of time

On humanity p.o.v. - Jesus became human, God in the Word became flesh.

When it comes to Holy, it can also mean various terms, Mary being a virgin, conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, mean that her bearing child was done by the grace of God, a Holy entity, that proves to a miracle, and thus provin the existense of the Immaculate conception. Some researchers say, that Mary messed around or got raped by some Roman soldiers and that was how she got mysteriously pregnant. If these were coming from Christians in general, then why do we wish to believe in Jesus, or to live his ways? Following God's will?

Sorry for the loooooong comment, but here's the last one "...Pray for us". Isn't this is what Christian Spirituallity all about? Praying for one another or for the enemies like Jesus taught us to do?

and lastly on
Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church

If you can prove to me Jesus said "... and...I will build my CHURCHES" then I can understand on why there are non Catholics around the world... a little article on Apostolic Succession is on me blog... :-D please feel free to visit... simple but I focus more on info

http://signoreda.blogspot.com/

Non-denomination said...

Andrew, I have adopted the name you have given me on your previous post.. Now in response to DONAARON, I noticed you only used 1 bible verse to support your response to mine...first of all, I said nothing in regards to the phrase "Hail Mary".. Let's stay on track here.. I asked why do you PRAY to her..it's a simple question.. I've done plenty of research on Catholicism and apparently, you all believe that she is the coredeemer... Why? Who said that she was? Now once we've gotten that question answered, I will expound on the topic more.. Moving on to the kissing and bowing- If bowing was not a sign of worship (and Im speaking biblically because that's ALL I go by)then why were Meshack,Shadrack, and Abednego willing to burn alive instead of bowing to the statue of Nebudchanezzer? If bowing wasn't such a "big deal", then why didn't they just do it? They could've bowed as a physical gesture and not meant it in their hearts... Right? Wrong! The act of bowing is a physical sign of worship.. no way around that.. Look up the word bow in the dictionary-It's an act of worship. And why pay "Respects" to statues any way? Or dead people in general? In the bible it says that the dead know nothing..They are just that-DEAD. There are many more stories in the bible that speaks about bowing, not just to statues, but to human beings. I'd be more than happy to share these scriptures with you if you are interested. Moving right along-Let's get to the 10 commandments-Why were they changed by the Pope and catholic church?

Non-denomination said...

Oh and by the way, Andrew, I have TONS upon TONS of pictures I could share with you here on this page, Problem is.. I don't know how to put them on here. So if you could be so kind to instruct me on how to do so, I'd be more than happy to share.

DonAaron said...

My my my the prophet theologian... & pardon me but I've gone through the many versions of the Bible... What good is a bible if several books are taken out from it? The Word should be as it is... a Full Book, no ommissions.

One example in history, during the reformation, on the letter of St James which he says "Faith alone without works is dead"... Now why was it almost removed out from the Lutheran bibles a.k.a. Martin Luther's teachings on Sola Fidei (for those who donno Latin it's Faith Alone) and the Bible can save, but remained in both the Jerusalem Bible, NRSV, KJV, NSV, just to name a few. Some Apostles, did their homework some, did not, some questioned on Jesus' divinity, some understood it

Oh ya, and the Catholic Church broke up into pieces not because of matter of Scripture, it was because of councils, on accepting whether Jesus is Divine or human, or Divine alone, but in general on His Divinity

DonAaron said...

Changing or removing the 10 commandments are just crap. Sad thing bout us common people is that when the bible lists a full A to Z, we tend to simplify it and then comes the part where "What happened to this commandment? What happened to that verse etc etc" In short, commandments have been shorthanded, e.g. Like and becomes & and yang (a Bahasa Word) becomes yg for example.

In some things common sense tells ya what to do...

We don't care how they are grouped together; we only care that they are understood and obeyed -- not because we are under the Old Testament Moral and Ceremonial Law with its legalism and non-salvific ritual (we aren't!), but because we are to obey God as children of the New Covenant, whose moral law includes the Two Great Commandments (to love God and to love our neighbor) which surpass the Decalogue, and whose Sacraments surpass empty ritual, being media of grace.

more info on

http://www.fisheaters.com/10commandments.html

and FYI - Matt 4:4
(Catholics live by the WOrd and By the Eucharist)

Non-denomination said...

Ok, I see... you're right, faith without works is dead.. according to the scripture James 2:17. But what works is this scripture speaking of? Most people believe that they are under grace and that they are not bound by laws or have to do works.. but that's not true.. God gave us laws to go by to this day.. But people aren't aware of this. Actually, these laws that God gave us are a matter of life and death.. according to scripture. Now, Donaaron, in Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus says that All the Law and the Prophets hang on these 2 commandments-Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as thy self... And what that means is that, if you JUST keep those 2 commandments, you will NOT break the other 8.. Make sense? For example... If you love thy neighbor as thy self, you would not kill anyone would you? Would you steal from anyone? Would you commit adultery? Would you bear false witness against anyone?-Not if you love thy neighbor as thy self... You see where I'm going? That's what Jesus meant.. the other commandment of the 2 is Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind-If you truly love God, you will not have any other gods before Him, you will not use His name in vain, you will keep His Sabbath, you will not make any graven images and bow to them-So, in short, if you keep just those 2 Laws of God, you will keep ALL His commandments. In the Bible it says that if you break just one commandment out of His 10, you have broken them all and are guilty of them all James 2:10-11. Are you not keeping His Sabbath? Are you bowing to graven images or idols? If so, then you've broken all 10 and you are sinning against God...according to the scriptures.

Non-denomination said...

Also, Donaaron, if you live by the word of God alone, according to Matthew 4:4,then you are supposed to obey God's commandments. And not to be rude in any way shape or form, but from what I have studied and read and heard, Catholics don't go by what God says, but by what Priests/Pope say.. Alot of the practices that you all keep are not biblical, therefore the religion is not based on God but a mixture of man made doctrines and parts of the bible.. which makes the religion faulty..God has not, is not, and will not allow man to interject their own spin on things. Sorry to say, but that is the truth.

DonAaron said...

Den for what were priests instituted even during the time of Moses a.k.a. in the OT???

And... does not God speak through His people or like in the Creed...

"He has spoken through the prophets..."

And if God does not speak through His people, what use are miracles and the blessings he grants on them?

If God ever physically spoke to me today, and say Aaron you only worship Me, not my Son nor the Holy Spirit, don't pray to Mary or the Saints or even to my Angels, then I can understand it.... and leave the Catholic Church and... follow this new faith of urs i.e. the Bible Religion...

Jesus Built a Church for Peter to run when He left earth, not churches...

If He said not to move on and develop in wisdom and knowledge for the glory of His Kingdom then just be a traditional....

Tradition in some ways are good for e.g. pro life and keeping the commandments but in some things, they need to be reviewed but with limits...

And... do pick ur sources from several bibles, not only one

Andrew said...

Dear non-denom friend.

Firstly, on attaching pics, you can get a free Picasa of Webshots account and post photos there and link them here and I'll have a look.

Again, I'll respond slowly because I simply don't have the time to write of post and this bores other readers to death.

But, as promised, I will respond to you. Let's try read what the other writes and determine what he is actually saying and not talk past one another.

Non-denomination said...

Wow, Donaaron... Im some what surprised at what you posted but at the same time, not really. It is true God does speak through us but why would God tell a "prophet" something contrary to what His written word says? Does that make sense? I think not. Why would God provide a written manual to people over time with clear and strict intructions on how to receive eternal life just to have some man come in and say, "God told me this and we will not refer to the Bible anymore because that is of old.."-Do you honestly believe, Donaaron that God would seriously confuse people like that? What good is the Bible then if that's the case? Why even use it if supposedly God is speaking through this man who knows whats best for us? C'mon now dude.. Seriously? Man is naturally corrupt and easily corruptible therefore not making him trustworthy-The Father sent His Son as an example and we must walk as Jesus did and not to ever receive anything outside of His word... If you read the Bible, non of the prophets or apostles went outside of God's word.. None of them. The Bible is a guide that points out false teachers and false doctrines..and do you know the best way to find out if a person is a false teacher teaching false doctrines? If what he is saying does not match perfectly with the word of God, then he is a false teacher. It's simple. Now, first I would like to say, I am not being rude nor am I trying to rouse an argument amongst us.. I did not come to this site to piss off Catholics-No not at all, I came here to share that what is being practiced (not just among Catholics, but just about everyone) is contrary to the word of God. Don't you guys want to receive eternal life, do realize how serious this is? If God turns any of us away, that means we will be destoyed and cease to exist. So in saying that, the questions I am asking you guys as well as the issues I am addressing are to make you question who you are really worshipping.. I know it's hard to listen to because you are trying to defend what you believe.. but look at the word of God and see if it matches up with what you are doing.. Simple. There is no guessing with God, when you read His word... YOU KNOW! God said "I am the same today, yesterday and forever." Hebrew 13:8 Which means, God DOES NOT CHANGE! So if that's the case, why would He change His mind regarding the word He sent us to go by? Here's another verse from the Bible.. " I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ to ANOTHER gospel: 7 Which is NOT another; but there be some that trouble you, and would PERVERT the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an ANGEL from heaven, preach ANY OTHER gospel to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel to you than that you have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9. So you see, God has warned us of these things.. He says that if it is not written in the gospel then it is not of God..matter of fact, it's not gospel at all. And by the way, how do you know which bible I'm using or even how many different Bible's I am using? I provide the scriptures.. look them up yourself..

Now moving on to the church being built on a rock. First of all, when Jesus said to do this, He was not talking about a literal rock... He was talking about Himself-He is the rock. God would not allow His church to be led by man, the true church of God is led by the Spirit. Again back to the "Call no man father.." issue, what Jesus meant by that was.. Don't place a man as the HEAD of the church.. The only HEAD is God.. He is the Father, HE is the Teacher, He is the Master.. NO MAN are these things-Only God is. So if a man presents himself as the HEAD of the church and teaches his own doctrines for "salvation"... and you accept him as the HEAD of the church AND practice his doctrines, you have replaced God with this man.. Therefore you are accepting that this man is the "HOLY FATHER", the TEACHER, and the MASTER. Does that make sense? And Donaaron, you are not supposed to put a limit to the word of God.. if you go by the Bible then go by it fully.. not partially.

Andrew said...

The first part on the Scriptural foundations of the Petrine Primacy can be found here.