Tuesday, January 06, 2009

Attacked and maligned - stating the truth in charity

UPDATED: Addendum at the bottom.

The post on girl altar boys have generated some heated response, including from friends of said girl altar boy. The sister of the girl altar boy posted a comment on this blog and then posted the following on her blog entitled 'PREDATORIAL VICTIM: Altar girls' which compels me to respond. I hope to have done so in charity.

Dear Joey,

I read your comments with interest. And I've also answered the questions you kindly posted on my blog. But let's be fair. Let's look at what you've said, and perhaps you'll be so kind as to answer some of mine and return the courtesy?


I guess I was wrong about assuming the hiao big boobies will be altar girls.
Why would you assume that?

But when my sister served last mid Dec, Andrew Khoo, a big ego-ed Master Altar Server thinking he's holier than the Pope, had a blog posted about her mistakes and even put pictures up!
First, that's a personal attack which I don't think is merited? Where did you get the impression that I am big ego-ed? Could you pls provide an example?

Second, where did you get the impression that I was holier than the Pope? Again, example please. That would make your case more convincing, would it not?

Furthermore, look at the Masses celebrated by the Pope in the Vatican or elsewhere he has travelled? Do you see girl altar boys there? Why do you think this is so? Do you want to know what the Vatican thinks on this? See this video (Which was coincidentally posted on my blog as well which you did not seem to notice) which features Cardinal Francis Arinze, the Prefect of the Congregation of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, the Vatican department in charge of the liturgy of the Church. Don't believe me. Listen to him yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

Am I the one who thinks he is holier than the Pope or perhaps it's not me but others who want to change the Church to fit their own ideas that are trying to be holier then the Pope? Let's be fair in our criticisms.

Third, where did I point out her mistakes? Again, evidence, please.

Fourth, your sister performed in public. Was it wrong to have photographs of something public taken? Is she embarrassed to have done what she did? If she felt that nothing wrong was done, then why be embarrassed? And FYI, even without her requesting it, the photos were taken down. But I can't understand why she or you would be embarrassed to have their photos taken when something is done in public.

Tell me where exactly I have been wrong and I'll correct it immediately but if not, then don't you think that you need to put a correction?


Oh of course she had the scathing post and comments printed and shown to Father Marshall, the parish priest, but I HAVE to have my two cents in tembak-ing this fella who insists on protecting his self-implied masculinity of the church.
Nice and mature, but where in the world did you get the impression that I insist on 'protecting his self-implied masculinity of the church.' When you make such statements you'd better back it up, or take it down.

Post here

I believe the church had always been refered to as a bride (female counterpart of a wedded couple) and the term used was 'She' and 'Her'.
Exactly, the Church is described in the female person, as in the Bride of Christ. And when this imagery is used, Christ is described as the Spouse of the Church, in masculine terms. Good.

The Church is also described as our Holy Mother the Church. When this image is used, we are described as Her Children for She, through baptism, gave us the new birth by water and the Holy Spirit.

The Church is also described as the Body of Christ. When this image is used, we are the parts of this Body and Christ is the Head.

Good observation. You notice the complementarity principle.


And what is this about his fear of us women of the parish wanting to chew off more we can bite by wanting to be popesses and godesses? And is that wrong in the first place?
Good questions. Your observation above shows that when the Church is described as female, as in the Bride of Christ, there's a corresponding male description, Christ is the Spouse. So, there are differences in the genders who, while equal in dignity, play different roles.

When the Church is the Bride of Christ, then Christ is the male Spouse. Similarly, the priest acts in persona Christi, in the place of Christ during the Mass. And so is male as was handed down to us through the Apostles.

Does this mean we negate the dignity of women? In no way. The purest and most blessed of creatures in Mary the mother of God to whom your parish Church is dedicated, whose image adorns the main stained glass window. She is the Queen of Heaven, of the male Apostles, of the martyrs and saints. She is the most exalted of God's creation. In what way does the Church look down on women?

When we eliminate the difference in the roles, when we eliminate the distinction between equality in dignity and equality in function, then that's where the slope slides down to popesses and godesses.

Here's how. If there are no differences between the functions genders, then why can't a woman be a priest, if a priest is merely functional, that is, performs some duties? And if a woman becomes a priestess, then why not a bishopess or a popess? Why do we limit the progression of women priests?

Then in mankind in created in the image of God and we are created male and female, why can't we call God a goddess and call Him her?

If you think I'm joking, I'm not. The same people who promoted girl altar boys in those advanced countries you like so much have also promoted women priests and bishops and call God female, disregarding that Christ came in history as the Son of God, as a man. They remove all references to God as male. Person? No way. Because there's son, which is a male child. So it's perchild.

Similarly, this marks also the approval for gay marriages. If there's no distinction between men and women, then why can 2 women or 2 men get married? Is their love less pure than the love between a man and a woman?

I sincerely hope you understand the point. You can always ask for clarifications and I'll be glad to respond.


Altar girls were proposed since the lack of altar boys.
Untrue. Girl altar boys were first proposed in Holland as a means to promote women's ordination and against the will of the Church and in disobedience to Her. The result? The almost total destruction of the Church in Holland. Check out the stats. You can find them online. Read up the history and be educated and informed.

Secondly, the introduction of women priestesses, as in the Anglican Communion or the Episcopal church in the US have not overcome the shortage of ministers and instead have cause the church to split and it's membership to shrink. Everything that some people want to turn the Catholic Church into has already been tried, tested and found defective. The Episcopalians are the prime example of this.

And hopefully I'm assuming correctly,
Nope. You're not.

the intense 'studying' of altar serving scares the pre-pubescent male parishioners from picking up the white and black robes. Exams and tests, the severely long lectures...
Your ideas are mistaken and I hope you correct them. Think about it. Why would the altar boys discourage people from joining them and serving Mass? But don't you think that people should know what they are doing? And that some things, especially relating to the worship of God, should be done right and with full concious participation? Why are you against training and are those who are being trained against it or are you presuming to speak on their behalf?

I know the Mass is a holy thing but if God and serving Him is forced to be something supremely important
He is God. He IS supremely important.

that we have to be superbly strict and can hardly breathe without Him saying so, that would be force of religion and a WRONG assumption of our Lord.
Acts 17:28 - In Him we live and move and have our being.

Job 12:7-10 - "But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this?

In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.


Was Jesus an uptight boy with slick back combed hair?
We do not know what kind of hair Jesus wore. Does it matter?

Were the Angels wearing loose robes with happy smiles or a wearing a stern lip and brow?

The Bible describes angels several times. Here's what it says:

From Isaiah 6:2-4 "each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another:
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory."

At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke."

We get our Holy Holy which we sing from the Mass here.

Isaiah is from the Old Testament. In Rev 4:8 we see the same song being sung in Heaven.

'Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come."'

Other verses describe angels as well.

Rev 8:7 - "The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."

Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says,
"He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire."

1 Cor 10:10 - "And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel."

Isaiah 37:36 "Then the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the next morning—there were all the dead bodies!"

2 Chro 32:21 - "And the LORD sent an angel, who annihilated all the fighting men and the leaders and officers in the camp of the Assyrian king. So he withdrew to his own land in disgrace. And when he went into the temple of his god, some of his sons cut him down with the sword."

And many other places. I cant imagine that the angels would be smiling as they were carrying our their duties. But perhaps I am mistaken. Maybe you can show me?


Was Mother Mary portrayed in pictures and visions as a kind Mother with a gentle smile or a stiff back?
The portrayal of Mary our Mother in the Scriptures (as pictures are of the imagination of the artist) depict a woman of faith, of obedience and of sorrow, who kept all the things she experienced in her heart and meditated on them. But it was her obedience to God's will which made her the most exalted of all creatures because she heard the Word of God and kept it.

Were the disciples beating up people to follow the Faith and shooting those who don't?
No, the disciples preached the faith boldly and invited people to believe. But their message was not always received kindly.

For that they as messengers were often cursed, maligned, bad mouthed and killed by the very people they were sent to convert and teach because many chose to remain in darkness. There are none so blind but those who refuse to see, none so deaf but those who refuse to hear.

But still they persevered and continued to preach the truth, in charity. But they continued to speak the truth.


Show me solid proof that my religion forbades the 'fairer sex' in participating in the events of Mass besides being Lector (reading of passages from the Bible) and I'll show you a God that is biased and we've been taught wrongly that He is merciful and forever loving.
I appreciate the role that women play in the life of the parish. Without them, there would be few Communion ministers, lectors, commentators, ushers, etc. They are very much necessary to the life of the parish. They are doing a great job and I'm sure God will bless them greatly for their efforts.

Just several things to clarify. The Church does not institute women lectors. Institution as lectors, like institution as acolytes, whom the altar boys substitute, can be done only to male candidates as the pic in my original post shows because lectors and acolytes are steps towards the priesthood and are formerly minor orders.

The Code of Canon Law, which is the Church law governing all Latin Rite Catholics says the following:

Can. 1034 §1 An aspirant to the diaconate or to the priesthood is not to be ordained unless he has first, through the liturgical rite of admission, secured enrolment as a candidate from the authority mentioned in cann. 1016 and 1019. He must previously have submitted a petition in his own hand and signed by him, which has been accepted in writing by the same authority.

§2 One who has by vows become a member of a clerical institute is not obliged to obtain this admission.

Can. 1035 §1 Before anyone may be promoted to the diaconate, whether permanent or transitory, he must have received the ministries of lector and acolyte, and have exercised them for an appropriate time.

§2 Between the conferring of the ministry of acolyte and the diaconate there is to be an interval of at least six months.

Can. 1036 For a candidate to be promoted to the order of diaconate or priesthood, he must submit to the proper Bishop or to the competent major Superior a declaration written in his own hand and signed by him, in which he attests that he will spontaneously and freely receive the sacred order and will devote himself permanently to the ecclesiastical ministry, asking at the same time that he be admitted to receive the order.

So, you can see that the ministries of lector or acolyte are steps to priesthood.

But Canon 229 clearly states that permanent institution as lectors or acolytes are only open to men. However, Canon 230 also allows lay people, including women, to fulfil these roles temporarily (which is what you see in our parish) but not be instituted.

Note the importance placed on training and formation of those who carry out these duties. That's why training is important.

Can. 229 §1 Lay people have the duty and the right to acquire the knowledge of christian teaching which is appropriate to each one’s capacity and condition, so that they may be able to live according to this teaching, to proclaim it and if necessary to defend it, and may be capable of playing their part in the exercise of the apostolate.

§2 They also have the right to acquire that fuller knowledge of the sacred sciences which is taught in ecclesiastical universities or faculties or in institutes of religious sciences, attending lectures there and acquiring academic degrees.

§3 Likewise, assuming that the provisions concerning the requisite suitability have been observed, they are capable of receiving from the lawful ecclesiastical authority a mandate to teach the sacred sciences.

Can. 230 §1 Lay men whose age and talents meet the requirements prescribed by decree of the Episcopal Conference, can be given the
stable ministry of lector and of acolyte, through the prescribed liturgical rite. This conferral of ministry does not, however, give them a right to sustenance or remuneration from the Church.

§2 Lay people can receive a temporary assignment to the role of lector in liturgical actions. Likewise, all lay people can exercise the roles of commentator, cantor or other such, in accordance with the law.

Note the distinction made between lector and others such as commentator? Because, again, lector used to be a minor order and institution is reserved for males.

§3 Where the needs of the Church require and ministers are not available, lay people, even though they are not lectors or acolytes, can supply certain of their functions, that is, exercise the ministry of the word, preside over liturgical prayers, confer baptism and distribute Holy Communion, in accordance with the provisions of the law.

Can. 231 §1 Lay people who are pledged to the special service of the Church, whether permanently or for a time, have a duty to acquire the appropriate formation which their role demands, so that they may conscientiously, earnestly and diligently fulfil this role.


Nope the emphasis on proper formation which you think is inappropriate.

So you see that these ministries are understood as steps to priesthood. So the Church has reserved the institution of these ministries to men only. But laypeople, including women, may temporarily fill in the role, but not be instituted. I've taken the time to explain all of this, as I explained it to your sister, in the hope that you understand the Church or at least make an attempt to. You may reject the teaching of the Church, but the least you can do is to understand it properly so you know what you are rejecting.

Hope this clarifies your understanding a bit.

ADDENDUM

Folks, may I direct you to the comments on Joey's (who is the sister of said girl altar boy) blog?

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6993724137672780142&postID=189479845796060066&isPopup=true

Then let me know if you still think I am slightly uncharitable. Be assured that I have restrained myself as best I can. But I have my failings and my faults.

You may also peruse her blog here: http://joeykenji.blogspot.com/

It's called PREDATORIAL VICTIM.

Check out the sidebar, the posts and the strong and colourful language used. Look at the picture of Truth on the sidebar.

This is no child but a grown-up, an adult who is a commentator at our parish.

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

good one andrew.

soon your parish priest with the help of so call feminist would calling u for a meeting ...

girl if you are reading this ..the anglicans call themselves catholic too....every thought of maybe joining them and pray dress up as a priest ..

Cany said...

Ouch, anon. I am an Episcopalian and have, in fact, a woman priest--our second.

You may not agree with that, but your words are pretty harsh.

Anonymous said...

harsh as it is ....

better than being politically correct in order to please the secular world

JoeyShinoda said...

anony...

IM NOT LOOKING TO BE A PRIEST.

you have all the wrong assumptions. I'm not standing for the rights of women to be priests or popesses.

that was my sister he had made scathing references about 'girl altar boys'. I'll lend you my size 7s for awhile.

i never have given a damned about the differences between Catholicism and Protestants. I don't give a damn about gay marriages as well, Call me ignorant and disbeliving in my own faith if you will but take a minute to think.

I may not be able to quote bible texts or Vatican rules to convert you to this side of the fence. Showing me that these traditions mention hims and hes' only and disallowing women is utter stupidity and pin pointing singular incidences is blasphemy

Go cry to the Pope if you want. I'll still say all this.

vidimusdominum said...

Andrew,

Since Joey has already showed her disinterest in the faith, I think there is nothing else that needs to be said. You have already objectively present in more than 1 post the Church's official teaching on the matter and if Joey does not want to accept the faith "that comes to us from the apostles" (cf. Roman Canon), there is really nothing much we can do.

Joey,

Although you may not "be standing for the rights of women to be priests or popes", by allowing women to be altar servers inevitably leads to these things. When one element of faith is attacked, others truths will be shaken and attacked too.

Mark Tan said...

Well... after reading so much I don't really know what to say!But...

I would like to draw upon an ancient and wise saying...

If you walked down the street, and if a crazy DOG barks! What would you do? It would be silly to bark back, that would be stooping down to the DOG's level. The wise choice would be to ignore the DOG. For those who are on the side of TRUTH knows very well, that the DOG knows not what it is doing. =)So we just walk on...

It is just a story. Those on the side of Truth will know who or what the DOG is. =)

Anonymous said...

Joey,

As a fellow Catholic , I can only pray for your soul and ooops your sister too ....

Nowadays there is a so call new religion ...a religion of *I am God*...U would be a great god there and yeah there are no differences too..u can stay in with your count dracula there ...

I rather have my church small but faitful to it's traditions ...

Anyway I would say a decade for you today ..who knows in 10 years time you would end up a traditionalst nun with the habit and all :)

Brandon

Norman said...

By sitting in the pews, paying attention and focusing our thoughts to what's happening at Mass, we are already "participating at the events of Mass". The "events of Mass" is Christ's sacrifice on the cross....

No one needs to be serving mass, to be lector, warden or a choir member to get "more" out of mass.

So actually, no one needs to fret. If you are sitting in the pews, you can concentrate better, right? no need to worry about this and that (eg. is my cassock crumpled? did I mispronounce the word? did i read too slowly?)

Anonymous said...

oh mark tan, well said.
hahahaha

Augustine said...

(Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, if I haven't said so already, Andrew.)

Ouch. Talk about thuribles at dawn...

Anon no. 1, as much as I agree with our common stance on the unorthodoxy of "ordaining" women, your post was remarkable uncharitable. A little restraint would have conveyed the charitable nature of orthodox teaching a little more evidently.

Andrew, I think it's good you've taken down those pictures, and I hope you've been thanked for doing so.

Joey, if you're going to argue, at least fight fire with fire, and take the time to construct a slightly less... ranty response. That said, I'm sure we should all be sympathising with your sister if she feels offended or upset.

Mark, I really hope that wasn't a comparison between a "crazy DOG" and Joey, because given she's obviously reading these comments, if it was, I'd say that your life expectancy has just plummeted! :p

Norman, this ([i]No one needs to be serving mass, to be lector, warden or a choir member to get "more" out of mass.

So actually, no one needs to fret. If you are sitting in the pews, you can concentrate better, right? no need to worry about this and that (eg. is my cassock crumpled? did I mispronounce the word? did i read too slowly?)[/i]) is excellent!

Merry Christmas to all!

Yours,

Augustine

M@rK said...

so what happens if the dog stops barking and starts to bite?

M@rK said...

actually, i forgot to add- metaphorically, what if the dog was infected by rabies... but that would be taking it too far, and you know what I mean..

Anonymous said...

Dear Augustine,

Charity is a must but in the Catholic faith it is either yes or no ..no 2 ways about it ..

Mark Tan said...

Hi...

Augustine... It's good to hear from you. Just so you know. It was not a uncharitable post from Andrew. He tried by taking much of his morning off by explaining to her properly the Catholic stance.

However, obviously, she went on nonetheless. Which subsequently led to this post.

Besides that, the Truth will always hurt. For some, the hurt will turn into sorrow, then repentance; for others, the hurt will turn into hatred and bitterness. This was the difference between a repentant sinner and a pharisee during the time of our Lord.

It is not so much the Catholic stance that Andrew presented that is the root cause of the problem, but the problem lies and the person who responds to it whether positively or negatively.

Andrew's words may be strong to some, but at times, strong words would be appropriate to put forth a point. If a person tries to commit suicide, we would try to ask him to come back in from the edge, if not, necessary force may be required to bring that fella in.

Thus, to save a person's spiritual life,which is much more important than one's bodily lives, justified strong words may be required.

As for the parable of the dog, my friend Augustine, your assumptions on who the dog is are your own, not mine. =)

And Mark, I would leave you to figure the details of the aggressive nature and physical health of the dog in my story.=) and again, your assumptions are your own, not mine. =)

After all being said, the truth must be told, with charity; but told nonetheless.

Andrew said...

Norman, Paul, Marks, thenks for your inputs.

Augustine, hey, welcome back and a Blessed Christmas and Happy New Year to you too.

Folks, may I direct you to the comments on Joey's (who is the sister of said girl altar boy) blog?

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6993724137672780142&postID=189479845796060066&isPopup=true

Then let me know if you still think I am slightly uncharitable. Be assured that I have restrained myself as best I can. But I have my failings.

You may also peruse her blog here: http://joeykenji.blogspot.com/

It's called PREDATORIAL VICTIM.

Check out the sidebar, the posts and the strong and colourful language used. Look at the picture of Truth on the sidebar.

This is no child but a grown-up, an adult who is a commentator at our parish.

Mark Tan said...

Dear Jocelyn,

THIS IS NOT A CRITICISM! Just something I would like to share.

I know that you are angry. But when you calm down. Take a slow read over what Andrew said about the Church's position on altar girls. I know you love the Church, or you would not be coming every week.

So just take a look at the reasoning of Andrew. It may be a long post, but read it bit by bit. Try to understand that Andrew does not want any conflict, but only clarification.

We are rationale beings and should not allow our emotions to overcome us. I understand how sisters tend to protect each other. But try to set aside these emotions and look at it objectively like an outsider.

Try to understand, just try.

Mother Church is loving, ever-caring, but at times, like a mother who disciplines her child, Mother Church disciplines us, that we may not be spoilt children.

Love would sometimes be strict. And a child's good intention to show mom a big display of fireworks in the house to amuse her this CNY would be met with those fireworks being taken away (though the child may not like it).If not mom would not be doing her job well and may cause the whole house to be burnt down.

Your sister may have good intentions in serving, but as I've said, good intentions are not enough. You may have good intentions in protect your sister as well. But again, good intentions are not enough. It must be backed by good actions, not by entertaining the thought that girl altar servers are promiscuous.

Think about it.

Anyway,happy new year!

Anonymous said...

she is a church commentator...a girl who worship dracula and twillight ...

u guys need to screen people laqh ...next u have masons as EM ..

DonAaron said...

I do not know how to put it but 'A selfish Christian will run away from challenges, a selfless Christian will face challenges' - Holy Thursday's homily @ OLOG, Puchong in 2007

If a person can't handle criticisms or think their photos are too expensive to be posted on blogs or what nots... then why bother to serve in any ministry for that matter... I do come form a parish where my priest gets mad when liturgy does not go according to GIRM (he's the Archdiocese Liturgy Guru) and I am glad for that, as of 2009, so the parishioners here are used to him lol... a lot of abuses were tackled inc liturgy, dress code, discipline while serving, rubrics and much more (not to toot my own horn)

It's all about care, if you are not criticized for your work for me it means that people don't care, just run your life with no rules @ all... let there be a clown mass, cheese head priests @ mass or some bozo doing their stuff...

Pax..

Anonymous said...

u know I was at mass the other day in OLL and the priest Fr.John commented that we are losing our traditional values ...no respect for the eucharist , no kneeling , no sign of the cross and what does he do about it ...

he do not say the confiteor at mass...do not incense the altar , hindu type lamps during mass and others ...

so who is to be blame ...

Brandon

JoeyShinoda said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
POPEAH HO CHIAK said...

Hello,

im just an observer. But honestly... if you guys keep on with this,,, not only is it un -christ like but i think its just gonna stumble many others.

shud deal with it face to face. Im no holy poly, but honestly... guys ... u all serve in church.. you want others to come read this?.....

anyway may i suggest that you try the new starbucks cherry blended drink. realll sweeeettttt.....

Andrew said...

In the interest of fairness, I have to note that "POPEAH HO CHIAK" is, in fact, the sister of the girl altar boy. Perhaps she intended to post anonymously but forgot to log off. I don't know.

Jocelyn,

No need to hide your identity. If you have some something to say it's good to just say it. Although the "I'm just an observer" part is pretty hilarious lol. Your language in this post is good and decent by the way. Keep it up.

M@rK said...

All I pray for is that I do not go back to a church which has worse liturgical abuses than those I have encountered here in Ireland. Some of you will be interested to note that for the main mass today, we had no homily, one lector read all the readings, no genuflecting by the priest, mass time of 25 minutes, and of course- a collection!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrxZFY27lzQ&NR=1

Anonymous said...

hello people of israel.
time to bomb jocelyn's house.
hahahahahha
don't mind me im just crapping
lol

Anonymous said...

i agree
let's bomb her house

Anonymous said...

that is what is happening in the churches ....I dun blame vatican 2 but the way it was hijack by the liberals ..so many types of masses these days ..

my church is now undergoing renovation on the altar and the interiors ...i dread to think of the outcome ...

Brandon

DonAaron said...

I'm not worried by the 1 reader does all, coz, @ least someone has the decency to do it. As for the genuflecting after the elevation of the sacred species, I could not say much... I can't blame India either. Coz the bowing after consecration was specifically allowed for that country, but others seem to abuse it... Oh ya and I've changed my link... to match my C.O.A.

http://mundacorme.blogspot.com

(sorry could not get mundacormeum coz someone else took it first) LOL

Anonymous said...

don,

I heard that there is going to be some major reshuffle of priest in kl archdiocese ...betulkah???

brandon

Kelvyn Yeang said...

Sorry,

Popeah was me, the previous user left the computer still logged in, and thats how i stumbled on your blog. So i am the one who deserves the discredit.

I know it may sound hypocritical, and i speak for myself only. In no way am i claiming to be exemplary. And i do think you have a very interesting and informative blog. But i guess it could use some filtering. If a non believer sees this, it aint that nice la.. if you know what i mean.

anyway cheers. we all get angry sometimes anyway. :).

wanted to send you a private message actually but couldn't :)

DonAaron said...

Dear Brandon...

Nope, KL does not reshuffle that often...(coz I go to the Archdiocese on often... so might just stumble on transfers/studies :-D ) the last reshuffle was like in years ago bout two-three... Any wayz if there were ever a reshuffle, the priests would usually go for studies not transfers... I noticed in the Penang Diocese, transfers happen often? I think I'm a bit clear on why his Lordship was appointed Bishop of Penang and Archbishop Emeritus Soter appointed Archbishop of KL... By the way Bishop Anthony was previously Auxiliary Bishop of KL b4 he became Bishop of Penang...:-)

Andrew said...

Kelvyn,

Sent you an email. I understand that and as I said, as fallen creatures, we all make mistakes sometimes. I'll be the first to admit that and also be the first to admit I personally make a huge number of them and am far from exemplary. Jesus is our role model and example.

That's why I try to explain why I said what I said. I'm willing to take the heat for it, online and off because I believe in the truth of my statements and, if you'll note the addendums, am willing to correct the things I feel need correction.

Thanks for commenting and thanks for dropping by.

Cheers.

Nicholas.B said...

Hi Master Andrew,

Wow........u got yourself in a "fight" this time. When actually did this whole thing started? Izzit when i left Malaysia? Joeyshinoda has her own stand i see BUT u have already anwsered all her questions. I think it is personal n not "church" thing. However, i'm not to judge anyone. I won't know who is right and who is wrong in the first place.

Andrew said...

Nothing wrong with altar girls. They serve a role and as we know altar servers in our parishes aren't instituted as acolytes just like our lectors.
You write of not seeing altar girls at papal masses but I ask you do you see adolescent kids serving at those masses?
Main point of me commenting, is it really important? Does it add or subtract from worship at Mass to have female altar servers?

Andrew said...

Andrew. Gr8 name btw.

I disagree. There's definitely something very wrong with girl altar boys as I've explained.

You know the difference between instituted lectors and those deputed to serve in that capacity.

Firstly, do other people know the difference? Do you know why there are no permanently instituted lectors? Because the bishops fear that this appears discriminatory as this instituted ministry is only open to males. The same for acolytes. So political correctness has consequences.

This opening of the ministry is a political statement which aims to open Holy Orders to women.

Is it important? Yes. Everything we do in the worship of God is important. Because it involves the worship of God. For example, in the Old Testament, the Lord gave minute and detailed instructions pertaining to His worship. These ranged from the dimensions of His Ark, the altars, the materials and construction, the garments of the priests. This is the same God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. He found it important enough to do so and so the Catholic Church of today finds it important as well and that is why the liturgy is regulated. We who worship in Spirit and in Truth should be even more particular about how we worship Our God Whom we know to be living and true.

Lex orandi, lex credendi, the law of prayer is the law of belief. What we pray and how we pray affect our belief, so yes, it is important.

As for adolescent kids, they are different degrees of the same kind, eg male.

big benny said...

Andrew, your use of the term 'girl altar boy' is highly insulting an incorrect. In fact, there are no such things as 'altar boys', the correct term used in church documents as you probably know is altar boys (ie gender neutral). Altar boys is a colloqial term with no official reference.
The reason that female altar servers are not used at the vatican is that cathedral services are served by semenarians (it is one of there official functions) who are obviously male only (at this time). In parish churches, boys have traditionally been used to take the place of absent semenarians for serving mass. However, with the reform of cano law, there is no direct impediment for girls acting as altar servers if the local bishop has permitted it (and the officiating priest does not object). It's not your personal choice since you are neither the local bishop or officating priest so i respectfully suggest you shut your mouth and keep your opinions to yourself.
I am very suprised that your parish priest has not taken stonger actions against you. I am glad you have removed the spiteful and vindictive photographs although your comments since still do not display any charity whatsoever.

big benny said...

correction from above....

In fact, there are no such things as 'altar boys', the correct term used in church documents as you probably know is altar server (ie gender neutral).

Anonymous said...

big benny,

how can the parish priest takes action when he also is subjected to investigations for abuse of the eucharist and abuse of the mass

maybe big benny should take a look at church documents regarding altar boys or servers before you be struck silly

brandon

big benny said...

brandon, your comment does not make any sense to me.

the parish priest is responsible for formation and supervision of altar servers in his parish. he may delegate someone (in this case the jumped up MC - andrew) to help him in aspects of this duty but nonetheless he himself remains responsible as parish priest. it is the parish priest's responsibility to correct this matter and injustice, which i would think should include a public statement to the parish with a clarification on the correct status of female altar servers - ie permitted and anonically lawful. if the said MC has a difficulty with this then he would be free to resign his honorary post or have his duties relieved from him. i do not know if there is an issue of the PP and liturgical irregularities but even so (or especially so even) he still holds responsibility to act legally and pastorally.

big benny said...

correctio for above...

should read: canonically.

i obviously type quicker than my keyboard can keep up!

Anonymous said...

benny boy,

the parish priest did not receive the permission of the ordinary for the altar waitress

go figure

marvelous martha said...

The parish priest does not need to recieve special permission for female altar servers, it is something he decides at a diocesean level.
The use of terms such as 'female altar boys' or 'altar waitresses' is highly insulting as well as incorrect. It highlights that the basis of your objections as misgyny. I hope you go to confession before you recieve communion as you are in a state of mortal sin, you hypocrites.

marvelous martha said...

The parish priest does not need to recieve special permission for female altar servers, it is something he decides at a diocesean level.
The use of terms such as 'female altar boys' or 'altar waitresses' is highly insulting as well as incorrect. It highlights that the basis of your objections as misgyny. I hope you go to confession before you recieve communion as you are in a state of mortal sin, you hypocrites.

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